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A few more details for generic Install pls

Or Update to Downloads/Repositories long overdue?

Autor Respuestas
Spryte Thursday 6 June 2013 at 15:49
SpryteAnonymous

As per the title, The following are some questions I have about installing PoL. Further Down is how I ended up here ... I'm sure I'm not alone in my frustrations.

Someone care to fill in the blanks or at least point out where this info can be found.

For the "Generic Install"
• Where should "PlayOnLinux_4.2.1.tar.gz" be unpacked to and run from?
• What will it do? i.e. Is it going to install like a "Software Manager" installation or just run PoL from where it's unpacked? How will it impact the rest of my system?
• Do other versions of PoL need to be uninstalled first or will it clean them up?
• How can I remove this installation, if I need to?

(Phew, at least I'm not such a newbie that I know what unpacked means, else I'd really be screwed.)

------------ How I got here ------------------

I'm running LinuxMint 15 (Ubuntu 13.04 - Raring) and installed via "Software Manager" (as a newbie linux user this is the 1st choice.)
• 1st thing I noticed in PoL. New version available.
• Go to Websie to update.
• last 2 versions of Ubuntu don't have "debs"
Hmm ... must be some problem with it working on these version or else there would be. No? Added to that, the official repo's don't have updated version. So, ok, might be stuck with using 4.1.1 for now.

Check Documentation ... "Installing PlayOnLinux depends on what distribution you use, these details are found on the downloads page." just been there.
Check out forums ... nothing in stickied FAQ's. Maybe no problems with never versions of ubuntu then, else surely I'd see something.

Lets see if there's another option to upgrade the version
• Generic package
• "you have nothing to build" - What a relief, a whole learning curve evaded there.
• "extract these files and run" - Without the answers to at least some of the questions list above, I can't risk this kind of installation.

Many hours + issues trying to get things to work with 4.1.1. And much search of forum. With little success.

I finally read this....

"Also, make sure you are running PlayOnLinux version 4.2.1. We don't support 4.1.1 anymore, as its really old. Upgrade your PlayOnLinux version before doing what I said above. " - Admin DJYoshaBYD
http://www.playonlinux.com/en/quote-10278-40908.html

Here I was, thinking it must be pretty new if it's not in the repo's yet. If it's that old surely the ubuntu downloads could have been updated by now. Or it could have been included in the official repositories already? Frankly the above comment really irritated me after all the time I've spent struggling with this outdated version. When a little more info on the downloads page could have precluded all of this.

Hopefully the upgrade will magically fix the hassles I've been having, like ...
Why PoL keeps screwing up my Optical Drives access. So that any other disks inserted after the 1st don't get read properly, until the system is rebooted, not just shutting down PoL. i.e. the label stays the same, most files are missing, etc.

And final here we are with this Post. This seems the most appropriate forum to post in until I can get the update installed.
Ronin DUSETTE Thursday 6 June 2013 at 18:11
Ronin DUSETTE
Admin


For the "Generic Install"
• Where should "PlayOnLinux_4.2.1.tar.gz" be unpacked to and run from?
• What will it do? i.e. Is it going to install like a "Software Manager" installation or just run

Citar


No. That is for every other system but yours. You said that you are running Ubuntu, so use the .DEB in the Ubuntu section. .DEB files are the equivalent of .EXE files on windows for debian and ubuntu based systems.

Yes. The repositories are out of date for 13.04, but that does not matter. The DEB file will install on any of them. This is not a playonlinux thing, but a VERY common Linux thing in general.

a tar.gz usually has source code in it for either compiling or running from source. As you can see, its not in the Ubuntu section.

Download it here:
http://www.playonlinux.com/script_files/PlayOnLinux/4.2.1/PlayOnLinux_4.2.1.deb


(Phew, at least I'm not such a newbie that I know what unpacked means, else I'd really be screwed.)

Citar


Well, you should have SOME knowledge of how to use a Linux machine. We are not here to teach every last basic of Linux usage. We can help, but thats like someone asking how to run an EXE file in a WIndows forum.....


• 1st thing I noticed in PoL. New version available.
• Go to Websie to update.
• last 2 versions of Ubuntu don't have "debs"

Citar


Lol. Umm, I dont know where you are seeing the DEBS for other versions... There is literally only 1 link to a DEB file, and its at the top of the Ubuntu section. Again, this comes back to a lack of knowledge of Linux package management methods, which isnt your fault. I went through the same thing. That notwithstanding, this is a very basic usage of Linux in general, and without knowing how it works, it will be confusing for anything you install outside of the Software Center.


Hmm ... must be some problem with it working on these version or else there would be. No? Added to that, the official repo's don't have updated version. So, ok, might be stuck with using 4.1.1 for now.

Citar


We have absolutely no control over what goes into the Ubuntu official repositories. As with MOST things in the Ubuntu reposotories, programs from there are often not up-to-date with the most recent version of programs. VirtualBox is a good example, as well as a few other programs.


Many hours + issues trying to get things to work with 4.1.1. And much search of forum. With little success.

Citar


Again, this is a learning curve issue with LINUX, not POL, as simply installing the .DEB file for Ubuntu on the download page would install 4.2.1.

I HIGHLY suggest reading the Ubuntu Wiki and manual, as well as doing more reading on your operating system. That is literally the best way (besides actually using Linux) to learn its operations. If you havent read any of the documentation for your Operating System, then RTFM. hahaha. You cant expect to just know how a system works without learning. But, thats part of the fun of this OS. Trust me, you will look back at this a year from now and be like "Damn, I really asked that?" haha. I know I have done that. Be patient, learn, and most of all, have fun while learning.


Here I was, thinking it must be pretty new if it's not in the repo's yet. If it's that old surely the ubuntu downloads could have been updated by now. Or it could have been included in the official repositories already?

Citar


Again, we have no control on what Ubuntu puts in their official repos. MANY MANY programs are NOT anywhere near their true stable versions. NVIDIA drivers are another great example.


Frankly the above comment really irritated me after all the time I've spent struggling with this outdated version. When a little more info on the downloads page could have precluded all of this.

Citar

Be irritated all that you want, but it was simply a matter of you not knowing that a .DEB file is an executable installer. A quick google search for .DEB files would have explained it very well.

Essentially, you download it, and run it, just like any other program on any other system. Just click on it, and it will open your software center or DEB package installer, and ask you if you want to install it. Thats all that you have to do.



Hopefully the upgrade will magically fix the hassles I've been having, like ...
Why PoL keeps screwing up my Optical Drives access. So that any other disks inserted after the 1st don't get read properly, until the system is rebooted, not just shutting down PoL. i.e. the label stays the same, most files are missing, etc.

Citar


This is an issue with WINE, not just POL. POL is simply a front-end for Wine, which is a re-implementation of the Windows API. This is a known issue. A good way to get around it, is to create a folder in your home folder, and copy all of the files from the discs there. Then when you are prompted by the install script to choose a disc, point to that folder. Its been a common workaround for a while.


And final here we are with this Post. This seems the most appropriate forum to post in until I can get the update installed.

Citar


This is the most appropriate forum, and we do appreciate all of the detail. If you follow the instructions above to download and install 4.2.1, then you should have no problems.

Another thing that you NEED to understand (and I am speaking STRICTLY about running Windows programs in Linux), is that this is NOT Windows, and things do not always (actually more likely than not) run as expected. Installs are funky, sometimes fail, etc etc etc etc.. Patience is a virture when it comes to this stuff. If you are doing manual installs, dont start getting all pissed off because it doesnt work, when it may be missing some essential components (like .NET, directX, VCruntime, etc) to make it work. Thats why we write scripts; some programs require advanced configuration and scripts make it easy for non-techs to get a program working.

We are also aware of some outdated info on the site. Ive been trying to keep the forums clean, up-to-date, and fresh, but its a lot of work. There are only 7 of us, and NONE OF US GET PAID. This is a labour of love, and we all donate our time to help.

Tinou is the main guy, and he would be the one to make changes to the website. All site issues discussed already have bug reports waiting to be fixed, but Tinou is extremely busy, and hasnt been able to make those changes. Trust and believe we will get those updated. I would do it myself, but I do not have website edit access.

I hope this clears up some of the issues that you are having. If you have more questions, fire away, and Ill be more than happy to try and get it cleared up. :)

Editado por: RoninDusette


Please:
Post debug logs & full computer specs in first post
No private messages for general help, use the forums
Read the wiki, Report broken scripts
Ronin DUSETTE Thursday 6 June 2013 at 18:46
Ronin DUSETTE
Admin

Here some links to things you should read (dont worry so much about the versions of Ubuntu; they all are fairly similar):

Package Management Basics
https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/serverguide/package-management.html

DEB file WIKI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deb_(file_format)

Repository Managment
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/CommandLine

Official Ubuntu 13.04 Documentation
https://help.ubuntu.com/13.04/ubuntu-help/index.html

Editado por: RoninDusette


Please:
Post debug logs & full computer specs in first post
No private messages for general help, use the forums
Read the wiki, Report broken scripts
Spryte Friday 7 June 2013 at 12:45
SpryteAnonymous

Firstly I'd like to just reply in general to your post and what you said therein. I'll post again with more specifics about the issues I had and my solutions, in an effort to help out anyone else who has similar problems / issues. So no-one really needs to read this post :P

While this is composed in reply to your comments, it does deal with things in a broader sense and my frustrations with "open source" in general. Also please note that I do appreciate your prompt reply and the time and  efforts you put in. As well as the efforts and achievements of PoL  as a whole thus far.

"Well, you should have SOME knowledge of how to use a Linux machine. "

 In brief ...
(I did write a couple of pages in reply, with lots of examples, etc. But I feel better now and it would probably just bore people.)

This seems to be a "linux world" philosophy. But RTFM just doesn't work when it's written in just as much jargon. As the author assumes "you should have SOME knowledge". Personally I'll happily read the manual and figure things out, but my experience is that the manuals are just as cryptic, obsolete or missing. i.e. Even the official debian documentation for APT is considered obsolete ... and everything else in debian package management eventually refers you to it.

Whereas a couple of links to relevant info would make things a lot more newbie friendly. While a little time with a search engine could get you there. I've often found it difficult to find relevant information to what you're doing, especially if you're not familiar with the particular jargon used in that area. (I've spent hours sifting through ambiguous search results.)

And from my point of view it would seem that "newbie friendliness" should be a priority, because ultimately ... the more newbie friendly, the more users, the more support for projects.

So please keep in mind the newbies when you're updating the website.

Anyway enough said ... on to my proper post.
Spryte Friday 7 June 2013 at 12:56
SpryteAnonymous

Thanks again for the prompt reply and for the links, I am aware of debs and what they do. I've been wrestling with getting some sort of offline/back-up of my systems recently, so I know more about debs than I really want to..

The best info for a new user however would probably be ... cos the topic can get technical and confusing fast.

.deb Package installation.
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingSoftware#Installing_downloaded_packages
which includes info on the graphical interface GDebi for dpkg (which is more widows user friendly than terminal commands)

"it was simply a matter of you not knowing that a .DEB file is an executable installer. A quick google search for .DEB files would have explained it very well. "

Yeah I didn't take a 2nd look at the standalone deb file on my return to the downloads page, I went straight to the "generic version". However ....

The main point in my post was that; As a new linux user, the Downloads page does not instil I feeling of confidence that the latest version of PoL will work on my system and that I could safely use it.

How many times have I read the warnings that installing the wrong things can break your system. Nevermind all that dependancies malarky, etc, etc. I can't afford to have my sytem broken.  I actually have to use this system to do some work at times :P So trying out the latest version without at least a bit more info is a daunting prospect, especially in the light of how long it'll take me to recover if something goes wrong.

So a little detail on what the install is going to do to my system would have gone a long way to increase my confidence. Since the last listed version of ubuntu is more than a year old.

Even seeing something like the following for "raring" would have helped. (that's what I meant about last 2 versions of ubuntu don't seem to be supported ... according to the info on the downloads page)

For the Precise version

Type the following commands:
wget -q "http://deb.playonlinux.com/public.gpg" -O- | sudo apt-key add -
sudo wget http://deb.playonlinux.com/playonlinux_precise.list -O /etc/apt/sources.list.d/playonlinux.list
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install playonlinux


Albeit it might have been a false sense of security .... at least I know that the project is aware of my version of the OS, and it probably won't mess it up.

And yes I'm aware that, apart from just installing PoL, the above is just so that I won't need to "manually" install a new .deb package when a new version of PoL is released.

... some time passes ....

And after exploring  http://deb.playonlinux.com/ I see quantual entries which aren't listed on the website. And I could probably just add ...
"deb http://deb.playonlinux.com/ quantal main"
to my  /etc/apt/sources.list.d/additional-repositories.list or similar, and add the "key" to get auto-updates if I want to risk it.
Since all link back to the same playonlinux_4.2.1_all.deb which is exactly the same as PlayOnLinux_4.2.1.deb on the downloads page according to the sha1sum.

Since finding the time for maintenance seems to be a problem it might be worthwhile changing the PoL repository to conform to something like
"deb http://deb.playonlinux.com/ debian main"
for all debian based distributions. Since it's seems to be same install file for all the Versions.
(then again I might be talking rubbish, lol. And I'm not sure about the "main" bit either. In my limited experience I've only seen "extra" used instead on some re-packaged proprietary driver repo's, that do similar thing for all debain-based OSes )

That way you wouldn't have to have add specific lists of commands for each Debian/Ubuntu version.



So in an ideal world I would have like to have seen something like the following on the downloads page. (written so that my mother would feel comfortable using it)


Ubuntu:

Installation file is a deb package that can safely installed with the tools included in ubuntu and should work on all versions, *as it doesn't do weird stuff to your system, insert some authoritive text here*. And can easily be uninstalled.
Click here if you need help installing a deb package.

PlayOnLinux: PlayOnLinux_4.2.1.deb

Or to keep your installation up to date:
Type the following commands:
wget -q "http://deb.playonlinux.com/public.gpg" -O- | sudo apt-key add -
sudo wget http://deb.playonlinux.com/playonlinux.list -O /etc/apt/sources.list.d/playonlinux.list
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install playonlinux


(Where playonlinux.list includes a generic type repository for all debain-based distro's as I meantioned previously. Stikeout so someone doesn't try to use it by mistake)



Hopefully someone else might find something of use in this post, anyway at least I refer back to it next time I have to install PoL :P

Editado por: Spryte

Ronin DUSETTE Friday 7 June 2013 at 19:10
Ronin DUSETTE
Admin

The deb file tells you exactly what you are installing when you run it. DEBs run the same risk as any .exe and adding repos. Im sure in the future someone would find it useful.

I NEVER see "How to run our .exe" stuff on Windows sites, why? Because its assumed that if you are going to be downloading and installing stuff on your system, you should know HOW to do that, and what kind of files you can use.

Ubuntu:

Installation file is a deb package that can safely installed with the tools included in ubuntu and should work on all versions, *as it doesn't do weird stuff to your system, insert some authoritive text here*. And can easily be uninstalled.
Click here if you need help installing a deb package.

Citar


So, by that token, we have to write excplicit how-to-install instructions for ALL Linux distros now.... Again, this is something that a user should already be aware of before attempting ANY installation outside of the repositories.


As for the repository list; like I said, there are already bug reports filed and assigned. We are just waiting for them to get updated. I do agree that it could be a little more concise on how to download, but the deb file is simple. You click and install. Just like an exe. Just like on Windows. And 99% of Windows sites dont tell you how to run your executables. If we go that in depth with install instructions on basics, then that means we now have to cover all basics for everything.

"Wheres the F12 key?"
"How do I create a folder on Linux?"
"How do I get get my wifi working on Linux?"
"Why arent my updates working?"

Thats the thing; installing using a deb is the easiest way to install things with the exception of the official repos, and the user should know HOW to use their system BEFORE starting to install stuff. We dont need any warnings about how it may or may not mess up your system, because first, it tells you exactly what you are installing and what deps are needed when you open it, and second, if you dont know what you are downloading in the first place, then you shouldnt be downloading and installing it anyway.

Now, I have to be honest... You are literally the first person I have ever seen post on here confused about this, as it is very straightforward if you understand how to install stuff on your system. I dont know who the hell told you that installing stuff runs the risk of breaking your system; its not true. At least not to that extent. I install and remove software ALLLLLLLL of the time, and this is my work machine and it works fine. Thats exactly what the package manager is there for; making sure everything installs and uninstalls right, while not breaking any other packages.

Obviously, be weary of anything outside of the official repositories, but almost all open-source projects arent there to spam you. Unless the developers screwed something up, you can rest assured that almost no open-source guys will steer you wrong. We are all in the same boat :)

And can easily be uninstalled.

Citar


ummm, now if they dont know how to INSTALL, then what makes you think that they know how to UNINSTALL? hahahaha. Thats what I am saying; without basic package management knowledge, then uninstall is just as confusing. lol

In closing, almost all of the things you mentioned ARE going to be fixed/corrected/updated as soon as the head devs have time. Im sure this thread will help future searchers, and I do thank you for your time and input. Let us know if you have any more issues. :)

Cheers

Please:
Post debug logs & full computer specs in first post
No private messages for general help, use the forums
Read the wiki, Report broken scripts